Since you don't intend to be straight and answers questions posed of you, I see no reason why I should.

I had a micro preemie at 19 weeks. She died. When you see your child not able to eat because there is no suckling reflex, her face contorted in a silent scream because her lungs are not developed, then post. Until then be quiet because you have no idea. All these users insisting on hope and life have never seen it. We are not talking about a 2 pound child, or a 23 week pregnancy, we're not talking about a regular preemie, or even a micro after 22 weeks. 22 weeks is that fine line between survival in the womb and out of the womb. Before 22 weeks babies do not survive. And trying to make them is sick. It's not noble or loving, it's torture. They are in constant pain and for no reason. You are all wearing these percentages like badges of honor. You're so compassionate, and caring because there's hope, hope , hope, 7% hope. Percentages mean nothing. My child had a 4% chance of survival with no proper lungs, or eyes, thin skin, unable to eat that's worthy of 4%. What kind of life is that, starving, suffocating? I have lived why this is relevant. All I wanted was to be with my girl while she was on this earth. Mourn for her, and instead I saw her poked and prodded trying to make her breath when her lungs weren't equipped. You people posting have never seen a 22 below micro. There is only pity. God puts them here but for a moment and spending those moments performing surgery after surgery is the worst neglect of a blessing I can think of. Yes when there is hope try, but for babies 22 below there is no reasonable hope. Don't you dare talk to people wanting to spare their child a brief life of pain and misery as though they are heartless and don't value life. The fact is those who post such things have never lived it, and so would be wise to remain silent.

Sarafina, I am so sorry for your loss.  And, I think that you are right- it's easy to debate something that you have never experienced. I think all of this has to be brought down to a personal case.  Nobody should determine what is "right". 

"Don't you dare talk to people wanting to spare their child a brief life of pain and misery as though they are heartless and don't value life. The fact is those who post such things have never lived it, and so would be wise to remain silent."

I'm sorrowed to learn of your loss. I agree that I don't have the exprience that you speak of, but I simply refuse to accept that any child shouldn't be given at least the chance at survival. I'm not a parent, but if and when I so become one, I won't be letting anyone make the decisions on what's best for my child for me. I am also sorry for your loss, I'm not making a mockery of you or anyone else on the issue.

Those who would advocate that parents and legal guardians of a child not be able to make life or death decisions for the children they create are simply wrong in my opinion. In as much as I respect your opinion, with as much emotional weight as it carries, it is also your opinion.

The "brief life" of which you speak, is lived by all of us, some longer then others, but what you and I and doctors don't know for certain is whether in every case a child will die or will live. I believe that any life deserves at least a chance. As painful as it may be, we all struggle with pain at some point in our lives. If you want to call me heartless and suggest I don't value life, be my guest, but that isn't true.

If you decide to try to make a child, you have to accept the fact that nature won't always be able to complete the process every time. While I won't argue with you there are certain circumstances when there is no hope, and you would want your child to be as comfortable and peaceful as can be, there are plenty of cases in which there are hope, lots of hope, not just for a good chance at survival but for those who do survive, a chance to thrive in life.

To be honest, what is normal in life anyway? Why do people have to fit in in every way? If you are uncomfortable with raising a child with a disability or a challenge then you should adopt one that has not "defects" but also has no parents.

Medical science every year advances on ways to improve our species and allow for even those who don't get the best start in life, the chance to exprience all the ups and downs for themselves. If giving your kid with a low survival rate a shot isn't for you, then that's fine, but denying the right to other parents is very very wrong.

"I don't know that I personally would want to put my child through so much for just a slim chance of survival and almost no chance of a meaningful life, plus the pain of multiple surgeries. The pain of the loss would be incredible, but I think almost preferable."

Ladydeath wrote that and I respect her opinion too. I think John got it most right when he wrote...

"It may be easy to fantasize about what you would do if you were faced with that situation but until you are, well, you opinion is unimportant."

I hope I never face a choice or decision like it, but if I choose to have kids, I know it's something that has to be talked about before a pregnancy and comfort and support with whatever decisions get made has to be there. That also has to be left with the parents though.

Again, I'm sorry for your loss it's really hard to lose any child no matter what the age. I lost my friend Joe when I was in school to a car accident. I didn't ever think that would happen or that I'd have to really deal with death till I was ready, But when are we ever ready? For me, and maybe at 25 I'm not grown up yet, but I don't want to ever deal with it, but like you say if your child has no hope, and only pain, nothing else I would end it. But if your child has hope, I mean even a shot in the dark, I'd give the chance not take it. Wrong or right as a parents it would be our shared decision. That's my bottom line.

"yet would seek to force painful and unwanted care on micro-preemies."

I would seek for the parents and legal guardians to make the choice with the help of doctors rather then taking that right away from them and leaving in solely in the hands of doctors. There are babies in Japan, where they have made an effort to give them the chance and care, and the rates of success are climbing every year.

Rather then just pick an arbitrary number of weeks at which we deny the rights of parents to make executive decisions regarding the health of children... which is at best stupid in my opinion, somewhere in the middle another legal nightmare and at worst wholly unethical... as I have stated from the beginning it should be up to the parents to decide.

Whip please, stop twisting my meanings ok, it's not very becoming of you.

Doctors don't create life, parents do. They should also be ultimately responsible for ensuring that life gets a chance to happen if there is one. It's a fringe argument, one that isn't expected to be dealt with in every pregnancy. Why are you insistent on splitting hairs, here?

Is it because of the pain? If a baby survies the ordeal most do live normal "defect" free lives, at least according to the Japanese study I've read up on, the only one in which any facts were introduced to me. Some do not survive, and some of those who do survive do suffer birth defects but that doesn't make for a life that's any less valuable then to someone who doesn't.

If it's all about the pain? Well we have hundreds of pain relievers in this society rather then developing those why not just allow everybody to terminate their own lives if they are destined to live the rest of their life in pain? Is that an acceptable solution either? No.

Leave the right and responsibility where it belongs, in the hands of the creators of the life, the parents.

I dont' know of any success stories either, I'd love to hear them, I'd love to be proven wrong,

I can give you 2 success stories!

(1,) My niece went through 5 doctors before she found one that was willing to deliver her son. Because the amniocenteses test said he would be so severely brain damaged that the doctors were not willing to deliver him. Even the doctor that finally agreed guarantied the baby would not live. Today he is 22 years old with a master’s degree in Information Technology. So much for the test and doctors being right.

(2.) My grandson due March 27, 2004 born December 6 2003 at 24 weeks gestation 1 pound 1 oz. 12 inches tall spent over 5 months in the NICU had over 20 surgeries. Today is his birthday he’s 3 one of the happiest babies I’ve ever known. I am the mother of 6 daughters and have 16 grandchildren. He is the only micro-preemie.

Someone said they didn’t know what caused babies to come that early. We were told 90 percent of them are caused from a bacteria getting in the amniotic fluid. That’s what made my grandson come so early and they have no idea of how it gets in there. Because if they ever figure it out they can stop 90 percent of micro-preemies from happening!.

By the way I made a skin about him it’s on wincustomize.com named it right 2 life miracle if anyone would like to check it out here's a link: http://ourcupoftea.wincustomize.com/ViewSkin.aspx?SkinID=4003&LibID=1&comments=1

Pam

Sarafina I have felt that pain my daughter lost one at 19 weeks the year before she got pregnant for Perry Lee. Spending over 5 months in the NICU with Perry Lee we saw so many families suffer that terrible pain that is indescribable if you have never lived through it. Jennifer didn’t get to even hold Perry Lee until he was 3 months old after 2min. he stopped breathing and turned blue the doctors and nurses got him up and breathing again. That happened so many times while he was there in the NICU. The whole 5 months Jennifer sat at his little glass bubble bed watching his every move and breath. We took turns in there with her sometimes I myself would have to take a walk so other parents would not see me cry because their sweet baby was loosing its fight for life. I could see their hearts breaking I don’t know myself how Jennifer sat there day after day. It was so hard on me just to be there part of the time and I was a nurse.

Pam

How about this... If you think a baby is better off if we just let them die, then we should keep food from you and let you die the wonderfully humane death you with on them.

It is the same with micropremature births isn't it? They keep the hydrated, but don't feed them, until they drift into the afterlife.

Dan

No they do not do that Perry Lee could not eat at first they put lipids through the IV. Then as he got to where his stomach could handle food sources they fed him through a feeding tube they even put Jennifer’s pumped breast milk into him though that tube. Heck he’s 3 years old and still doesn’t eat food but he drinks PediaSure out of a bottle and tastes everything we can shove in his mouth. Because of the feeding tubes and ventilator tube he has a hyperactive gage reflex which means he vomits over everything. Try dealing with that you’re sitting there eating your dinner he walks over to you and with no warning he vomits on you. What can I say we love the little guy hopefully he will get past that someday soon. LOL

Pam

What can I say we love the little guy hopefully he will get past that someday soon. LOL

Msladydeath would just as soon see Perry Lee dead.

"yet would seek to force painful and unwanted care on micro-preemies." I would seek for the parents and legal guardians to make the choice with the help of doctors rather then taking that right away from them and leaving in solely in the hands of doctors.

Dan

As far as I have seen the choice is the parents with the doctor’s advice. They check the micro-preemies all the time and if they have something like a brain bleed that causes them to loose brain function. The doctors give the parents the choice to keep or pull the life support. I can tell you it is an agonizing decision to have to make. But the doctors wait for the parents to decide I saw a parent take as long as 2 weeks to let their sweet babies pass on after it had suffered brain death from a brain bleed. Perry Lee had a brain bleed but thank God it was a small one and it did not cause significant damage. He is really a miracle he was given a 10 percent chance of survival and he beat the odds.

Pam

Msladydeath would just as soon see Perry Lee dead.

ParaTed2k

You and not Msladydeath can really say what you would do, think, or say about this subject until you have walked in those shoes. None of us can no what something feels like until we have lived it ourselves. When people run their mouths about things they don’t understand they are asking for trouble because we all reap what we sow. like I tell my kids don’t dish it out if you are not willing to take it yourself. I know beond the shadow of a doubt God in heaven has a purpose for Perry Lee even if it’s just to teach us patience.

Pam

I was born very premature, roughly 2 pounds, and at the far end of the premature line. I survived, why not give them a chance to live.

SilentPoet

I am sorry guys but 2lbs is a micro preemie Perry Lee hovered around 2lbs for months. If you made it you are a miracle even a 2 pounder only has a one in 4 chance of surviving. I saw many 3, 4, and 5 pounders die in the NICU while tiny Perry Lee held on against all odds. I also saw a 21 week born at just 12 oz survive to leave the NICU and go home with her parents she was born 2 weeks after Perry Lee and she gained weight fast she left the NICU before Perry Lee did.

Pam

"yet would seek to force painful and unwanted care on micro-preemies."

I would seek for the parents and legal guardians to make the choice with the help of doctors rather then taking that right away from them and leaving in solely in the hands of doctors.

These were comments taken out of context, one was a rebuttal to someone's twisting of my original statement that the decision should always lie with the parents, the second is the same statement.

If you read the initial discussion, these people seemed to be a persuasion force for letting these babies, with little change die along with those that have no chance. I merely disputed that logic and rather then leave it up to doctors or critics or people on forums who have had the experience and want to talk about it. I've stated the choice for not making a child endure pain in order to survive or allowing a baby every opportunity to fight for their life, should lie with the parent and guardian. I wish people would stop debating that, because it is clear I have neither agreed completely one way or the other.

As a parent, you create the life, you are responsible for the decisions for that child, as long as you are mentally capable of making "life or death" decisions. Duh folks.

As a parent, you create the life, you are responsible for the decisions for that child, as long as you are mentally capable of making "life or death" decisions. Duh folks.

Dan

Even some parents don't deserve that right. While Perry Lee was in the NICU a set of preemie twins were born. Their parents like Jennifer stayed at Ronald McDonald House one of the twins was normal the other had a few problems like he had to have a shunt to drain the water off his brain but with time and care these things can get better. Jennifer over herd them discussing getting an insurance policy; then poisoning the baby for the money. So Jennifer alerted the babies nurse just incase they carried out their plan. Sure enough the father was caught putting medications in the sick babies IV and the blood tests proved it. The police check and found that they had taken out a large insurance policy on the sick baby. I dislike family services as much as anyone else does but in this case I think they deserved to loose both twins.

Pam